The Zip:Episode 36
What if I changed the name of my podcast to “the zip – a very popular podcast,” and people found my podcast every time they searched for the mosts popular podcasts?
Or what if changed my domain name, properly redirected all of my pages, but forgot to tell some obscure directory in a dark, cobwebbed corner of the Internet, and now my organic rank is suffering as a result?
This would never happen.
Except this is the kind of thing happens every day, in the complex world of local search.
When your job is to advise clients about best practices when dealing with a private company you don’t work for, the rules of your job are always changing. It takes some serious detective work and experimentation to parse out best practices.
And today’s guest, Joy Hawkins founder of Sterling Sky, a local search agency, Top Contributor for Google My Business, and faculty member at Local University, is one of the chief gumshoes on the case.
Joy and I will talk about her new Expert’s Guide to Local SEO, which, as a reflection of its industry, is an ongoing and ever-growing resource. We’ll dig into some of the unique frustrations she’s seen lately in the local space, and learn where Google still needs to mature in local search.
As an add-on to this conversation, we have a new post on the ZipSprout blog featuring an email interview with Miriam Ellis, another local search expert. Miriam couldn’t make the podcast, but I’ve admired her writing on Moz for quite a while, so I’m really grateful she was able to answer some questions over email. So if you’re up for some reading, Miriam’s interview post provides a great enhancement to this conversation with Joy. If Joy’s focus is the setup and structure of a local business listing, ensuring all the details are correct, Miriam is the big picture thinker – focused on the overall business, and how its real-world practices can affect local SEO too.
So that’s on zipsprout.com/blog, along with the transcription of today’s conversation with Joy.
As I mention in the podcast, this is the 2nd time I’ve interviewed Joy. When I spoke with her last fall, I learned a ton, but I was so new to the space that I think a lot of her insights went over my head. So it was great to have her back and follow up with more questions, and go a bit more in depth.
One final note – If you, or anyone you know, is a small business owner – they need to understand some of the concepts we’re going to talk about in this podcast, as well as in Miriam’s post.
Welcome to The Zip.
Megan Hannay:
Joy Hawkins, it’s good to have you back on the podcast. You’re actually my first repeat guest. So, congratulations on that, too.
Joy Hawkins:
That’s exciting.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah, yeah. You recently wrote a 140-page advanced guide to local SEO. Can you tell me a bit about the guide and what inspired to write it?
Joy Hawkins:
Sure, yeah. I think it’s up to 160 pages now.
Megan Hannay:
Okay, wow. It’s grown.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. Part of what I wanted to do with it is constantly add and update the information in it. As part of my reasoning for doing that is, I find a lot of information online that you might be researching, like, how do I do this? Or what should I do if I run into this problem? You’ll get these articles that were written maybe a year ago, and they’re already incorrect because Google changes so much. One of the issues I always have is, how quickly training gets outdated, and the agency that I worked at for eight years, that was one of the most challenging things that we ran into. When we went to hiring new people, we would give them training that’s outdated, and then they would learn the wrong tactics, and then we’d have to retrain them. It was just this endless cycle.
People are so busy, it’s hard to keep training up to date. I thought, how great would it be to create a resource that agencies can just subscribe to and then they don’t have to worry about updating it themselves and they know when new things come out and current tactics stop working, I would be able to notify them and let them know. Then as I discover new things that are working really well with my own clients, I’m adding those strategies to the manual, too. I actually quote my own resource all the time, because I don’t remember things. I’m like, what was the procedure for that again? So, I’ll look it up. It actually helps me a lot, and once I start adding employees, I can imagine that I’ll probably be relying on it even more.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. No, that makes so much sense, and I feel like that does happen all the time, and it’s really funny because it’s not like articles in Search Engine Land have at the top a thing like, “this is actually outdated now.” There’s no one that’s able to go back and do all of that. I think that’s really smart. Is the guide, would you say, is most intended for people within agencies? Not as much an individual business owner unless they’re really savvy or something?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah, definitely more agencies. I think everyone that’s purchased so far has been agencies that have clients in the local SEO world. That being said, I think there are some business owners I’ve talked to who are really keen on doing their own SEO and they really keep up with trends and stuff. Most people that subscribe to my blog are business owners. People like that, it’s good for them, too, but definitely more agencies.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. You said it started at 140 pages and now it’s 160. What’s updated already? What’s the thing that when you published it was different from what it is right now?
Joy Hawkins:
I remember when I was writing it, I was writing it, it took me several months and Google decided to do all kinds of changes while I was writing it. Even during the month I was writing it, I had to rewrite pages. For example, they got rid of the classic version of Google Plus back in February or March, and that made it so that all the processes we see for applying duplicate listings just stopped working. A lot of people didn’t realize that. They’re still using the same process and it’s not returning any listings and they probably had no idea why. I’d already written a whole bunch of pages that were like, “this is what you do.” Then, I had to go back and rewrite them. This month, I added I think probably 10 or so things. I talked a lot about photo spam in Google My Business. Shockingly, that’s becoming quite a problem.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. I saw an article you wrote on that. Yeah, that’s crazy.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. Just like, what do you do if you find a picture on your listing that’s for another company? I actually had a client have that happen and they were asking me, what do we do in this situation? There’s actually several different ways you can report it, but some work a lot better than others, so just tactics like that. Then, I was adding just pictures that Google has been testing. There’s this blue dot that you sometimes see in the three packs. What’s that? How does that work? I have a running log of categories that Google updates in Google My Business. They have about 4,000 categories currently for businesses, and they continually add and remove them only they don’t tell anyone. I’ve been tracking the categories, and I pull a list from the API and then basically compare it to the previous list so I can update my guide with what categories have been added or deleted within the last couple of months. And a bunch of other stuff.
Megan Hannay:
Do you think internally at Google there’s somewhere a guide that looks like just like yours? Or do you think that there isn’t and they’re like, “oh, we’re so glad Joy made this thing, because we weren’t keeping track of this”?
Joy Hawkins:
I don’t think they have one internally. In fact, I actually sent some of the pages I wrote on spam fighting to Google, to the girl that I work with there. I said, “Can you please show this to your team? Because they don’t know how to identify spam. It’s really not all that difficult.” I’m like, here are the strategies I use. Feel free to share. I literally just sent it to her and then she’s like, thanks.
I don’t know if they actually took them or not, but it just never ceases to amaze me how much Google is not capable of detecting a fake listing from a real listing. It’s sad.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah, because it’s almost like they have, obviously so many smart people developing things that maybe they do need more people on the other end that are like, what are the consequences of this new feature we added? Along those lines, there’s something I’ve been musing on recently with respect to local SEO. I’d love to get your thoughts. Basically, do you think it’s even possible anymore for the average Joe local business owner to have a good Google My Business listing if he or she doesn’t have a marketing expert in their employ? I feel like Google listings who can actually now hurt local businesses that aren’t savvy if they’re not aware of spam tactics or if they’re not sure how to list things.
I think it’s so interesting, because 20 or 30 years ago, we heard about businesses through physical directories or word of mouth, and it was very—not easy, but it was a lot easier than it is now for a business owner to just manage all of that kind of stuff themselves. Now, it feels like it’s a big job. Do you have people that come to you, potential clients or maybe businesses that you frequent in your hometown that you feel like are great businesses, but are just having bad luck with the marketing side or just trying to DIY and they can’t? Is it even possible for someone to DIY it anymore?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I think it’s possible, but very unlikely. It really depends on the industry you’re in and how big your town is. Even in small towns, I’ve seen businesses butcher their SEO. I visit restaurants all the time locally and I try and update their listings. Even the attorney that I hired, I was looking at his and I was like, oh, he hasn’t even claimed it. I was telling him, you really should claim your listing.
Yeah, if you’re a lawyer, for example, no. I don’t think you stand a chance if you don’t have a marketing SEO expert working with you, because it’s so competitive and all your competitors are most likely hiring people. In that industry, I’d say no, but there’s some industries that are not overly Internet savvy as a whole. If you’re in one of those industries, you might get away with not necessarily having to hire someone yet. I think eventually, it will be needed for almost everything.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. I feel like it’s such an interesting thing, because I almost wonder if it will either be needed or if Google eventually in 10 or 15, in a few years will develop ways for it to be simpler. I guess that’s my second question is, do you feel like—I guess based on some of the stuff in your manual and some of the things you’ve been writing, it seems like it’s going in the opposite direction, like local SEO is getting more complex. Do you see hope for the small business owner that maybe one day it’ll just be like, take a picture of my storefront and fill out my address and we’re good to go? Will it just be super, super easy?
Joy Hawkins:
Definitely not that. I see it getting harder in the sense that I remember back in the day, it used to be like, optimize your Google My Business listing, which I crack up. I still hear that all the time, and I’m like, what is there to optimize in Google My Business? Yes, you add photos. Don’t get me wrong. There’s some things, but it’s not that simple. People just think, I’m going to fill in a bunch of details and Google doesn’t even have description fields that they allow the business to enter anymore, but that doesn’t mean that Google isn’t grabbing a description of your business. They’re just deciding not to take it from the business owner directly. I think it’s getting more challenging, especially for cases where it’s like, why don’t I rank? I should be ranking. Those kinds of cases I find most intriguing. They tend to be the threads that I flock to online, because you get business owners that rank really well organically, but they’re not ranking locally, or vice versa. That kind of stuff I always find very interesting to try and solve.
Megan Hannay:
It’s like detective work in a way.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I don’t like it when it’s boring. The way I approach my clients, even, is that whenever I have a business that I’m working with for the first time, I start by auditing their listings, their account, how they show up on Google, looking for every little detail to try and figure out what strategy would actually work for them. I really just don’t think the whole cookie cutter approach works anymore. The whole, build 50 citations, set up your website, maybe create a location page and then you’re done. It’s just not that easy.
Megan Hannay:
That’s probably why someone would need an expert, because if there was just a checklist, it’s like, okay, I can do all the things on this checklist. Can you think of any examples of the detective work, a time recently when it was like, oh my gosh. It’s this thing. I never would have—where there are strange results that you’re finding or strange reasons why someone’s not ranking?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. Thinking off the top of my head, there’s a couple cases recently. When I was helping this lady on a forum and she ranked pretty good organically, but not at all locally, and she was asking why. I’m looking at it first and I was like, there’s probably something wrong with the website and that wasn’t it. There was nothing wrong with the listing. I was going through my usual, and she had a ton of citations. She was listed on Yelp and Facebook and all that stuff, but for whatever reason, she had no listings on any of the data providers. It’s interesting to see that that makes a lot more of an impact than the actual directories themselves. I couldn’t find a listing for her on Axiom, and then Info USA had a listing for her, but it was a wrong address.
Going through the major data providers, they were all like that. There was no data matching her current address. Since she wasn’t ranking locally, but she was really good organically, I concluded that that was one of the main issues. Another one was a consultation I did recently with a business that has locations in lots of other cities that are ranking great, but his newest location was in a big metro area, and it’s not ranking well at all. He was like, why is this one not ranking and the other ones are ranking? It turns out for some reason he had adopted a strategy for his new location that involved making a whole bunch of pages. When you see businesses that decide to make 15 pages for the same location all targeting different keywords that are—
Megan Hannay:
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Joy Hawkins:
Phil Rose actually blogged about it recently, about how you don’t need 100 pages all targeting different things for each city. That’s essentially what this guy was doing. I was like, it might sound like a great idea to have a different page per keyword, but then essentially these are just weak crappy pages for these. Then, Google’s also getting confused because you’re targeting the same keywords or very similar keywords on two pages. They don’t even know which ones to take and rank. He was actually getting filtered all over the place organically on Google. I had to dig into it to figure that out because his pages were just too similar. I think I’ve seen a few other people mention just recently that consolidating and picking those dozens of pages and consolidating them into one or two good strong content pieces is actually a better strategy. I’ve seen some really good success stories from doing that.
Megan Hannay:
That’s interesting, because with that latter person, with both of them—it seems like he thought he was doing something good. Logically, you can see a reason why he would do that. It’s like, oh, he thought he was being helpful in a way because if you’re looking for his business for this reason versus that reason, he has two different pages for it. It seems entirely logical, and yeah, it’s not the way it’s right now supposed to work. So, it didn’t work for him. That’s fascinating, and yeah.
Joy Hawkins:
He was splitting all of this internal linking and he’s splitting all of his back links and all that stuff instead of having it all circle the one page. Not to mention that the content on the pages is two paragraphs of text. He just highlighted the keyword. You’ve seen those types of pages for small businesses, I’m sure. They’re not valuable to the user, and it’s pretty obvious when you look at them that they were just written for SEO.
Megan Hannay:
He was trying to game the system a little bit.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. Google, it tried to detect those. They don’t do a very good job of it, but they are trying to.
Megan Hannay:
Right. On that note, you’ve also lately, and you mentioned this a little bit earlier, but you’ve been writing a lot about spam including keyword stuffing, businesses misidentifying or misrepresenting themselves to get a better listing. Even cases of businesses pretending to be other businesses, which I’ll get into in a second, but first, why do you think spam in Google listings is getting worse and not better?
Joy Hawkins:
Because it works, and I think it’ll continue to get worse until it stops working. Especially with keyword stuffing, it’s one thing that Google really has no system to fight at the moment. If I’m an attorney and I’m in Chicago and I want to rank for personal injury attorney in Chicago and I just throw keywords personal injury, attorney, Chicago-Joy Hawkins, it will make a huge impact on my ranking. I’ve tracked tons of different cases and stuff, and I published that one that talked about how it moved her from sixth to second overnight, basically, when she added this keyword in. That’s all that they did. It’s that fast and it’s that much of a difference just adding a keyword. When it works like that and you’ve got an SEO company that has to deliver ROIs to their customer and it’s so simple. Why not?
It’s one of the things that people are like, well, it’s in the guidelines. Well, it is in the guidelines, but Google doesn’t enforce it. You literally don’t get any penalty if you do it. Even if they catch you, they just correct it and then they don’t do anything currently to keep you from doing it again. You can just go back into the dashboard two days later and add it back in.
I’m not advocating to do it, because I actually had a guy after I wrote the article, he reached out to me. He was kind of upset and he was like, I just want to let you know I can’t stand companies that do this. I’m like, I agree with you, buddy. I’m the same way. I don’t do this for any of my clients. Most of the people that hired me hired me to actually edit competitors that are doing it or even try and level the playing field. That’s generally the approach that I take, but I never suggest just adding keywords to your own business name. Unfortunately, Google just doesn’t have anything in place right now. That’s something I’ve been pushing really hard with them. On the forum, we get a lot of people complaining about it, so I’ve been particularly escalating every single case. I’m bugging Google non-stop with more and more and more cases to help them see there is a problem and that they need to do something about it, because these people are getting an advantage that is really unfair, because they’re breaking the rules. It’s stupid.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. It’s so interesting because I feel like that in a way is mirroring the old days of SEO, not local. Just general SEO when it you could create a page being like, shoes, new shoes. I’m selling new shoes. You want new shoes? Then, that would rank really well for new shoes. They took care of that. It seems interesting. Obviously, there’s a way to do that, and it seems interesting that it hasn’t yet been implemented on the local end.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. It’s been almost 10 years, I think, that it’s been working. We’re not talking, this is a new thing. Blumenthal pointed that out, because he had a blog from back in 2008 or something talking about this. It’s not a new problem. That’s why it’s so irritating to people, because it’s like, okay Google, really? You can’t detect this? Just adjust your algorithm so that the name of the business is not so much of a ranking factor, and your problem goes away. Literally, I still don’t understand. It seems very simple.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. It almost feels like maybe something’s right around the corner. I guess it probably seems like that for the past 10 years. So, maybe not, but that is fascinating and a little strange. Also, you’ve written about how there are issues in the restaurant industry where food ordering companies—I think one example was beyondmenu.com, will take ownership of a regular restaurant’s organic Google listing and then charge that restaurant when reservations come through.
First of all, that is so shady, and I was so—whenever I hear something like that, that I’m like, that’s ingenious, but so horrible at the same time. It’s like if you put up a fake storefront in front of their storefront and then you charged them for all the customers that came through. You’re like, well, they came through us. Is that something you see happening in other industries as well? Or mostly the restaurants?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah, mostly in restaurants, because they’re really sneaky. I think the way that they pitch—not Beyond Menu specifically, because I don’t know about them specifically, but most of the ones I’ve seen, they’ll pitch the business owner a free website. You’re here running a restaurant. You don’t really have much of a budget for advertising. Most restaurants in my area don’t even stay longer than three to five years because they just have such a hard time keeping up with their costs. I think they prey on that and the fact that these people have no budget. When you tell someone, I’ll build you a free website and all you have to do is pay me a commission if someone orders from the website, the business owner’s going, that’s pretty sweet.
Then, they don’t realize that all their organic traffic that would have gone to their normal crappy site, they would never have had to pay for and now they’re paying for all of it. They just don’t get it. I think that’s the perfect industry to prey on, because most of the restaurant owners are really un-Internet savvy. It’s a very interesting niche for that reason. I haven’t seen it really in other industries. Most of the spam we get in other industries is very different. Restaurants seems to be the only ones with the menu and the booking. It used to happen a bit in hotels, the booking links and stuff, but we don’t see that much anymore, because hotel owners tend to be a lot more Internet savvy. They’re watching this stuff.
Megan Hannay:
Their margins are at least somewhat better. So, they can hire someone. With restaurants, they just have the short end of the—they don’t make a ton of money, usually, and yeah. They’re so busy running a restaurant. I feel like Internet, it’s just totally not at all close to what they’re doing all day. They’re not on a computer. They’re serving customers.
Joy Hawkins:
They would have no idea. How they were getting access, some of them are claiming them and then telling the business owner, you’ll get a post chart from Google. We need that, too. They weren’t giving them the full story. Then, some of them were literally just going in through public editing, like their mapmakers, Google Maps, and just literally submitting edits and adding websites for businesses that either didn’t have any website, or changing websites for people that did have websites. If you didn’t know what you were doing, you could easily approve and edit like that, because they looked very similar. The only thing that was different, the moment you go to order, it takes you to this ordering system and you’ll realize, this is an affiliate thing.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah. Unless you do that whole process, you would never notice that—
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah.
Megan Hannay:
This larger conversation on how it is, I guess, for a local business to rank in Google right now. It seems somewhat unfortunate for the good guy, because I feel like the local business owner who’s trying to do everything right and also for Google, too, I feel like the reason Google My Business listings are becoming increasingly complex may be because of some of the bad actors. Would that be a fair assessment? They’re trying to fix some of the things that some of the not-nice people are doing. So, that makes things harder for everyone?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I think sometimes it’s about to combat spam. I know when Possum came out, a lot of people thought, Google’s making the results different based on the person’s location because it’s going to make it harder for fake locations and people that are creating listings at the same address to all rank together, which is true. It did actually do that, but a lot of other people think it’s just because Google wants to sell more ads and they’re making everything harder so that people will just default to ads. Then, well, there’s probably some truth in that as well.
Megan Hannay:
Yeah, good point. Maybe they’re not as worried about fixing organic listings because they’re like, it’ll be all ads in a few years and then it won’t matter. Yeah. Well. I hope it doesn’t. I hope it’s not that. I still have thoughts that in a few years, there will be simpler ways, even if it’s not Google that does it. I could see this being just a really interesting startup idea that you’re simplifying this process across the board for business owners in a way that allows them to do all the things that they need to do for local listings without having to jump through a million hoops, especially if you just own a local restaurant and you want to have the basic things. I don’t know.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I think it’s time for Google to show which businesses are actually real and not. The problem with making it too simple is then you get a lot more spam, because it’s easier to rank. I think them moving towards it being harder is more of a combat to some of the challenges they get matched with hijack and things like that. If they made it too simple, I feel like that stuff would just increase. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s a challenge. It’s not an easy task.
Megan Hannay:
It’s so funny, because the local Internet in a way is supposed to be just a reflection of the city. Like, this store over here and that store over there, and it seems like that should be simple. Ideally, that’s what it is. It’s like, oh, I want to buy new shoes at a store close to my house. Okay, this is a place I can go to. Somehow, it’s not quite there. It’s somehow that reflection, that mirror, the digital mirror of whatever you have around you isn’t quite there yet.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I think that’s why they’re trying to focus so much on the local guides program because Google realized, hey, they’re not on the ground in all these cities. They really don’t know much about the city themselves personally, but a person in that city would know. They’ve been really pushing the local guides program, because they’re getting all this free data from users, and free data, reviews, photos, it’s gold. They can take that and use it and then monetize it, essentially. Serve ads and things.
I think that’s part of where they’re trying to move it to, because even now with Android, everything’s very Google friendly, but when I put the Maps app open, it will ask me for attributes on the business that are different than the attributes that the business owner could actually add inside the Google My Business dashboard. There’s some features about businesses that Google does not allow the business to answer, like if it’s cozy or if it’s got good rates and things like that. Every business owner is going to be like, yeah—
Megan Hannay:
We are super cozy.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah, but a user wouldn’t do that. There are different attributes that users will get asked for a business than the ones in the dashboard. So, it’s still really important to play around with mobile and see how your listing shows up there, too, because there’s some different things you’ll notice.
Megan Hannay:
That’s a good way to see what people think of you and if they really think that your restaurant is cozy or not or good for kids.
Joy Hawkins:
That was just one example, but yeah. There’s lots of different ones that they have in there that are more to do with user experience and they realized, the business owner is really not going to have an unbiased opinion here. I think they were trying to move more towards that so that it takes in the impact of the users that are in that town, which is what’s made Yelp successful. It’s the same type of business model that a bunch of different directories have.
Megan Hannay:
Right, yeah. It’s the feet on the street as opposed to asking people—yeah. The business owners, it’s like, let’s ask the people. I like that. Final question, and this is a new question I’ve started asking each guest a few months ago. So, it was after our last conversation. Since this podcast is focused on the ecosystem of local, I like to ask about the city that my guests are local to. I believe you live in Toronto. Have you always lived there? If so, what made you stay? If not, what brought you there and what makes being a local in Toronto a unique experience?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I actually live in a suburb of Toronto. No one’s ever heard of it.
Megan Hannay:
What’s it called?
Joy Hawkins:
I don’t say I’m from the Toronto area. Uxbridge. It’s technically where I live. I live in the middle of nowhere. I have a big property.
Megan Hannay:
Nice.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. It’s country, pretty much. It’s about 45 minutes outside of Toronto, and I used to live in the city at one point. I rented there, but it’s really expensive to buy in the city. Generally, when people get ready to buy, they move north. That’s what I did. I did live in the States for four years. I went to university down there, which I where I met my husband, but we both came back because I wanted to be close to family and stuff. That’s my story there.
Megan Hannay:
Would you say—I guess comparing your experience in the States with living in Toronto, is there anything that, I guess, makes Toronto a unique place? Or somewhere that you enjoy living in particular?
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I love living in Canada. I’m a fan of the U.S., but I like our free healthcare.
Megan Hannay:
I don’t blame you.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah. I don’t know. It was just a matter, honestly, of just being close to friends and family, because I think it’s hard to raise kids when you don’t have grandma and grandpa around or aunts and uncles and stuff. When I decided that I was ready to start a family, I really wanted to be close to my existing family members. I’ve thought about, we can move anywhere. We could go to California or whatever, because my business is very much online. There’s always that opportunity, but I was like, I really don’t want to start over and have all new friends and new family, or no family, I guess, near me. That’s always been the primary driver of where I live.
We wanted a nice area that had a backyard and stuff for the kids to play in. That’s part of the reason why I decided to live in the country versus the city. That being said, I really do miss Toronto, because it’s so multicultural and there are amazing food everywhere you go from every ethnic group you could imagine. I really miss that about the city. It’s one thing I think that Toronto has that a lot of U.S. cities I’ve been to haven’t had. Even New York City, the sushi there is nothing compared to the sushi here. I think our Asian population is pretty high up here, and they just know how to make it better.
Megan Hannay:
Interesting. If I want to go on a foodie tour, I need to visit Toronto. Very cool. I will keep that in mind. Joy, thank you for coming on the podcast again. I really appreciate your time, and I hope for both of our sakes that Google starts listening to all of your pestering them of all the things that are wrong.
Joy Hawkins:
Yeah, awesome. Hopefully, I’ll see you at a another local event in the future.
Megan Hannay:
Yes, definitely. Thank you.
